The differences between turbo's, and how to choose - Team-2G Mitsubishi Forum

SCR · 08-04-2006, 12:16 AM

I've noticed an influx of people asking about what turbo they should go with, not understanding the differences between them. So, in an attempt to better educate our members here at Team-2g I will attempt to explain..

First and foremost, you MUST know what your goals are...so before we can determine what turbo is best for you, take in to consideration the following:

- Be aware that with the more power you gain in mods the worse your reliability gets, gas mileage goes down, the more attention you attract...etc etc etc

- The good news? POWER....and LOTS to spare...

Now, lets start off with your basic modifications to prep for a bigger turbo. Your first modifications should be a full exhaust, intake, and a blow off valve. This should net you some decent gains and you can actually start to feel the power in your motor come to life. Brand names do not matter per say, but quality does.

Your 2g comes with a T-25 turbo, VERY small, maxes out at 15psi and can push out 210 wheel hp, and that is if you are lucky.

Now you've gotten used to your DSM's power and it's powerband and you need MORE! Here comes the big decision you must make...

Do you want a DSM that has reliability and a decent power kick? do you want a DSM that has a moderate power kick but you're paying for it losing some MPG's, or do you want that beast that has the turbo spool that scares people while you drive by...Here are your choices:

Decent Power Turbo's:

- 14b
- T28
- S16g

Moderate Power Turbo's:

- 16g
- B16g
- 18g

Where the real fun begins:

- 20g
- 50 trim/variants
- T3/4 hybrids
- FP franks
- 60-1

Now, each turbo supports different hp levels depending on your tune. You could have someone with a 60-1 untuned setup get beaten by someone with a B16g tuned setup. Its all in the tuning people...and the driver...=P

Before you toss on a turbo and crank up the boost, you should pick up an SAFC and a pocketlogger. You need to know how much timing you are pulling, what your O2's, how your short trim and long trim's look, how many volts are you running...

Now lets start with the 14b. A fine upgrade for a 2g DSM, you need minimal tuning if any, will put you around 220-230hp range. Now with this turbo you wont be able to beat anything spectacular, but is more of a personal satisfaction turbo. It gives you just a bit more than what you had in that T25. You'll need some 550cc injectors and a 190 fuel pump. Can handle upto 17psi...

Next is the T28, good upgrade and can net you 250hp. The powerband changes up a little bit with this turbo and is noticeable. You've started to notice your insta-spool is gone and you have to wait to 3krpms to feel it, but when it comes it holds to redline. You'll need 550cc's and a 190 fuel pump to run this. Can hold 19psi...

The S16g is very similar to the T28, they nearly flow identical CFM's. 190 pump and 550cc's. Expect a good 19psi from this one as well. What IS different is the intercooler setup. Where the T28 is a direct bolt on, the S16g and its bigger brothers require a 2g install kit, as does the little brother 14b.

Now the big brothers, 16g/B16g. Great turbo's that most DSM'rs have. Its the borderline of becoming a beast, these turbo's keep you right behind the safety line. Think of your car at the moment like having the power of an evo, but in your DSM! You can net 270-300 wheel hp! To run one of these you'll need a 190 fuel pump with a re-wire kit, and 650cc's. Can hold 20psi real nice.

The 18g usually comes in the Greddy turbo kit, and not many people have it. It packs a nice punch and can hold 21psi nicely. You can net 300hp with a good tune. You'll need a 190 hi flow with a re-wire kit, and 650cc's.

Now the fun begins...

The 20g turbo can net you from 300hp and up with a pull that will throw you in the back of your seat and give a bit of whiplash. At this point you are done racing other 4 cylinders unless boosted, and you are V8 hunting... You'll need 750cc injectors and you can opt to have the hi flow 190 pump with a rewire, or you can step up to the 255 pump. Be aware that going with the 255 pump WILL require an AFPR and you will be having SERIOUS problems trying to tune with an SAFC and a pocket logger...This puppy can hold 21psi REAL nice, and can net you close to 400hp with a good tune.

Anything bigger than a 20g will require even better tuning, and probably bigger injectors. If you are at this stage of the game and decide to go even bigger than a 20g, you don't need me telling you about these turbo's because you have already done your research and know what you need..

Good luck and happy boosting!

Jasons97GSX · 08-04-2006, 02:27 AM

Very nice write up! My only discrepency(sp) is your boost estimates. From personal experience you can run 20psi on pump gas on a 14b daily, and 23 psi on a big 16G daily. Also dont forget you need a tuning device (AFC/DSMLink/stand alone). We wont even touch race gas haha.

DSM_ South West · 08-04-2006, 02:41 AM

Not to bad BUT most of these so called itty bitty turbo's have been tried ,tested and have been deemed more productivity than many of the larger turbos. Don't ever under estimate the sheer power of a 16g let alone a 14b. There are many of these turbos that have proven to run 11-12's all day without hesitation.

Attack Eagle · 08-04-2006, 03:18 AM

I disagreed on two issues, see my re-write below.
1: you don't need an intake until you are well above 300whp (say running 20+psi, or the turbo is too big for it.
Save the money and get an airfilter, a uip and a bov, then chop the dump tube (www.dsm.org 2g morepower section). When you do install your turbo, you will require a decent MBC...this means a BALL AND SPRING unit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attack Eagle

Now you've gotten used to your DSM's power and it's powerband and you need MORE! Here comes the big decision you must make...

Do you want a DSM that has reliability and a decent power kick? do you want a DSM that has a good power kick but you're paying for it losing some MPG's adn some midrange torque and spoolup, or do you want that beast that has the turbo spool that scares people while you drive by...Here are your choices:

Decent Horsepower Turbo's with great response, little lag, and great midrange torque:

- 14b
- T28
- S16g

All round good performing turbos, with good street manners, but big enough to have a few hundred rpm later spool while having tons of power potential.

EVO III (good for up to 375 hp or more on pump gas with careful parts selection and tuning)
Big 16g
16g

etc etc.

FIRST is the BIG28, good and easy upgrade and can net you 250ish hp after the appropriate fueling and exhaust mods. The powerband changes up a little bit with this turbo and is noticeable. You've started to notice your insta-spool is gone and you have to wait half a second to feel it, and you'll want to cruise around 2500 rpms to minimize any delay when you want boost. But when it comes, it holds to redline, and you'll bounce of redline in first before you know it. You'll need 550cc's and a 190 fuel pump to run this at its max boost, but it will do 14 psi all day on the stock pump and injectors, 16 with a 190, and about 18-19 with pump and injectors. Is capable of holding 20-21 in good shape but is getting out of its efficiency range much above 20 psi.

The first turbo that gets involved is the 14b. A fine upgrade for a 2g DSM, particularly the AWD's, you need minimal tuning if any, will put you about where the Big 28 will unported. If you look at the specs, the 14b is a little larger turbine, and the other a little larger compressor, very closely matched in capabilities, but the 14b used, is WAY cheaper than the big 28 is, even after install parts. Now with this turbo you wont be able to beat anything spectacular, but like the big 28 turbo it delivers TONS of midrange torque, and great throttle response. It gives you a good bit more than what you had in that T25. You'll need a 190 fuel pump to exceed 14-15 psi, and 550s to exceed 16psi. Can reliably go up to 18-19psi with a better intercooler...can hold higher than that but is getting out of it's efficiency range. Get used to seeing the nose go way up when the boost hits at 15+ in 1-3rd with this turbo in an AWD, and even some fishtailing in first. To install this you will need an SS oil line, and a j pipe to get it in, and an elbow or other piping solution to keep the stock sidemount, just like the 16g.
The 14b is also SCCA stock legal if you are an autocrosser, as is the 1g bov. 250 hp and 300lb.ft. of torque will move your 2g's big butt out of corners with authority.

The S16g is very similar to the T28/14b but just a bit bigger, and thus a couple of hundred rpm laggier while having a little more PSI holding and thus power potential. A 190 pump and 550cc's should be considered mandatory to get the full usefulness of the turbo at this point, and you may want to consider porting as well. Expect a good 19-20psi from this one as well. What IS different is the intercooler setup. Where the T28 is a direct bolt on, the 14b and its bigger 16g brothers require a 2g install kit. At this point though, the EvoIII is very nearly the same price and often cheaper, and is ultimately a much more capable turbo with practically equal spoolup

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/Turbo-compare.html

ANd like aaron said, never discount the 14b and 16gs, they run 12's which is MORE than fast enough for a first time upgrader, with out being a PITA on the street or grossly impacting your wallet.

SCR · 08-04-2006, 10:22 AM

be realistic eagle, thats where you are falling short....how many DSM'rs actually SEE over 300whp out of a B16g...yes 14b's and 16g's have propelled DSM'rs into 12's....but they were using 150 shot of nitrous on a built motor and professionally tuned over and over and over....the AVERAGE dsm'r will net a lot less...please don't give the noobies hope saying their 14b can net them 12's with a good tune because you and I both know it cant..

as far as boost levels go, pushing 20psi on a 14b is pushing it on 91 octane and you of all people know it...my recommendations are for efficient use/daily driving conditions perhaps....there is no reason to push your motor or that little turbo to 20psi when you could simply upgrade to a killer t28 or 16g...again, be realistic...the most that the average DSM'r puts to his motor is 21psi or less....unless using 110 octane unless you want to blow up your motor...

aside from that, again, my FYI on turbo's is for the conservative DSMr...the guy/gal who is content with running 20psi as a hi boost...not to mention that you cannot run past 20psi on 91 octane without going boom.

as far as the 14b propelling you into the 11's or 12's easy? I think not...out of the first 125 people over at tuners 1/4 times running from sheps high 7 to low 12's guess how many people ACTUALLY got into the claim you just made with a 14b....3.......how many of those people had 20g's or bigger? 99% of them...the other 1% had big 16g's....so again, please don't say getting 11's and 12's like its nothing

Also if you look at those 3 that I mentioned they have fully built motors internals and all, 272 cams, race gas...the whole 9 yards....again, dont say achieving those numbers as if its easy...

Jasons97GSX · 08-04-2006, 11:38 AM

Lucky for us PA guys 93 octane is "premium" at the pumps

, and can run 20psi daily w/ no issues. We wont fight over times and hp numbers tho, cuz everyone is gonna have different opinions on that and is gonna cause major fights(tho that could be fun).

SCR · 08-04-2006, 01:01 PM

all I'm saying is for us suckers that only have 91 at the pump 20psi is our limit, 21 is pushing it...yes you can run a 14b on 20psi but it wouldnt do you much good...

again, this FYI on turbo's is from the realistic and coservative point of view, not saying any of the smaller turbo's can't run as fast as some of the big dogs, but you need SERIOUS engine work and better be able to drive like you were born with a stick shift in your hand...like I said, those turbo's are more of a personal satisfaction...I know, I was there...I had the T-28 killer for quite some time, I've helped a buddy of mine with his ported 14b, tuned it, ran it, dyno'd it...its just not as powerful as you guys make it sound...yes its a decent upgrade from the T25, but I would take a 20g over a 14b anyday...I've had first hand experience with just about every turbo listed downward size wise from the 20g....I felt first hand what a fully built 6 bolt with a 50 trim on 20psi feels like though, he was pushing 300 to the wheels at the time and seriously untuned...his car hauled ass like no other, he tied a porsche twin turbo fropm a 70 roll, he destroyed a modified 350z, he torque steered doing a WOT pull in 3rd gear so hard he changed lanes...you all know him too....VRMAN...he can tell you first hand that hitting that 300whp mark is not easy....

Attack Eagle · 08-04-2006, 03:17 PM

PLease remember that the t28 killer you have experience with is a 16g compressor wheel... a choked up 16g, and not a true BIG28. And yeah, cali gas syucks, and anaheim is right at sea level and humid (but pretty houses) so you guys can't run as many psi as we can in the dry southwest.

As far as how many of them see 300 whp out of a 16g... any of them that beleieve in tuning instead of throwing larger and larger turbos on the car. I certainl;y would never consider swapping turbos untill I had reahed at least 325 hp.
Most anyone around here who visits ray luna will walk away with at least 300 hp and 325 lb/ft of torque out of just a street tuned e16g.

I agree out of the box you won't get 275 or 300 whp with the smaller turbos, but it isn't a whole lot of parts and expense to get there either. certainly less than the cost of a whole new garret based turbo and manifold etc.

NO newbie in their right mind SHOULD expect adding a turbo to make more horsies... perhaps when they read this they will not go to some huge turbo that they will never use to its potential. baby steps.

SCR · 08-04-2006, 03:27 PM

I can agree with you on that

DSM_ South West · 08-10-2006, 01:54 AM

http://www.dsmtimes.org/times.php?He...rbo_14b&Page=1

http://www.dsmtimes.org/times.php?He...rbo_16g&Page=1

Notice in my before post that I stated "MANY, NOT ALL". Only a newb total fool would believe they could run 11-12's safely all day on a 14b but it is possible. EvoIII is a totally different thing. We got a guy down here that can easily make your DSM a 400 whp vehicle on an Evo III. It's not quite as hard you all make it seem either. We are all right in what were saying, it's just up to the newbs to take their plan of action in the right direction. Most these guys nowadays see Shep or Rau run and they fixate themselves into having to make a 6546765767 whp race car. When in actuality they have no Idea what 300whp feels like. I remember the first time I was in the seat of a 300whp DSM. It blew my freakin mind away. Gaining 300whp should be the epitome amungst all the newb DSMrs. You can never get in the 10's if you've never been in the 12's.

SCR · 08-10-2006, 01:02 PM

I don't consider 3 out of 125 many....and as I stated...they used race gas, had 272's, built 6 bolts, nitrous....imagine what they'd run if they had an FP red instead of a 14b....

Attack Eagle · 08-10-2006, 07:01 PM

IT's a solid high 13 second turbo, with mid to low 13 even dipping into 12s potential depending on tuning, driver skill, and octane gas used. I'd never try to run low 11s or low 12's on it though. At that point it'd be easier to go evoIII.

DSM_ South West · 08-10-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverMitsuGS-T

I don't consider 3 out of 125 many....and as I stated...they used race gas, had 272's, built 6 bolts, nitrous....imagine what they'd run if they had an FP red instead of a 14b....

I don't see where you get 3 out 125 from. Knowing myself, I'm gonna quit while I'm ahead. I really hope you newbs out there really take heed to some of the wiser DSMrs on here. Ignorance is what causes problems, ask question, Intelligent ones might I add. The greatest way of understanding something is to find out on your own, meaning do some research and really get to know your vehicle. Ok...........enough of my belligerent ranting.

2roll4life7 · 08-10-2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverMitsuGS-T

I felt first hand what a fully built 6 bolt with a 50 trim on 20psi feels like though, he was pushing 300 to the wheels at the time and seriously untuned...his car hauled ass like no other, he tied a porsche twin turbo fropm a 70 roll, he destroyed a modified 350z, he torque steered doing a WOT pull in 3rd gear so hard he changed lanes...you all know him too....VRMAN...he can tell you first hand that hitting that 300whp mark is not easy....

[offtopic]This is very off topic but I just had to say this... This quote right here goes among the top 3 badass quotes/scenes that I've heard/seen. First is the scene in desperado where Antonio Banderas walks across the room with the shadows (those that have seen it you know what I'm talking about), next is in American History X where the kid fearlessly blows his smoke into the other kids face in the bathroom and the other kid walks away, third is SilverMitsu's post about VRMAN's eclipse torque steering so hard during a WOT 3rd gear pull that he changed lanes. I'm sorry but damn... That's just badass. And to know that it's a lot faster since then just makes it even more badass. VRMAN, all I can say is damn.[/offtopic]

Anyway, what a lot of people don't realize is that 20 pounds of boost on a 14b isn't the same as 20 pounds of boost on a 50 trim. The 14b is going to be working a whole lot harder to be making that 20 pounds therefore it's going to have a higher charge temp, the turbo itself will be hotter, and likely the oil temp , etc. It's for these and other reasons that in addition to other factors such as money and supporting mods that, you should pick a turbo that is most efficient in the range of boost you're going to be running.

[Edit] Also I'd like to add that generally a smaller a/r on a turbo the quicker the response, but less potential for the high end power and vice versa for larger a/r. This means that if youtried to run 30 pounds of boost on two identical engines with turbos that have different a/r, that the engine who's turbo has the larger a/r will probably see a lot more hp. And also if you had those two engines and ran 10 pounds then the one with the smaller a/r would probably have more power, even though it's the same engine and a smaller turbo.

Silk90 · 08-10-2006, 10:09 PM

alot of people just throw out numbers and are like i want this much HP but have no idea how hard it really is. tuneing is DEFINATELY a MAJOR key. i have personally gained not exactally 100 but very close to 100 WHP from tuneing (this is just in comparison with races i had with cars and thair hp and the hp i made on the dyno afterwerds.)